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<title>US aids Georgia , US soldier captured (Author: odin / Forum: Current events)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=129751&amp;get=last#224325</link>
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Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:38:54 CST
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<![CDATA[ <P>Voice of the White House August 24, 2008</P>
<P>TBR News.org – August 24, 2008 </P>
<P>“What amounts to a terrible geo-political defeat for the United States as the direct result of the Russian/Georgian conflict, has caused much sturm und drang here. Cheney, who had no idea that Putin would react so quickly or that the Georgian army would totally collapse, is having a fit. Bush, who expected some kind of a blow to Tehran before he left office, is having one of his sulks and the propaganda organs are gearing up to try to smear Putin and disguise the fact that at the first sign of real trouble, our beloved CIA, the entire U.S. military machine in Georgia and almost all of our diplomats ran like Olympic track stars, leaving the crazy Georgian president to rage at his “betrayal.” It is known (because the Russians made it known through diplomatic and very private channels, that their troops had orders not to fire at the Americans but if the same Americans fired first at the Russian troops, fire would at once be returned. The same orders applied to units of the Russian Black Sea Fleet off the coast of Georgia. So far, everyone has been very correct. But it is becoming more and more evident that the very valuable Ukraine will be the next target of the emerging Russian empire. The Ukrainians initially tried to block the Russian Black Sea Fleet’s use of their rented base at Sebastopol but when informed that Russia would consider this an act of war and Kiev backed down with great speed. Although American military officials have loudly insisted they knew nothing of the fatal Georgian assault on South Ossetia, it is impossible to believe that with such a large American presence in Georgia and its close connections with the Georgian army, lack of American knowledge of the large-scale attacks is not possible to believe. <BR><A href="http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2869.htm" target="_blank">www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2869.htm</A> </P>
<P>See our Inside the White House archive: <BR><A href="http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/category.asp?id=41" target="_blank">www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/category.asp?id=41</A> </P> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: p5726 / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224241</link>
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Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:52:20 CST
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<P>That is pure BULLSHIT!!!!!!</P>
<P>Willing my ass. I am sure the farmers are willing to starve so that China can have it's Olympics.</P>
<P>They are willing because they are told to be willing. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0"> </P>
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<P>How much are you willing to pay for your dignity? And who are you a non-Chinese to comment on things you have absolutely no idea about? You think you can speak for those farmers? </P> ]]>
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<title>US aids Georgia , US soldier captured (Author: headrock / Forum: Current events)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=129751&amp;get=last#224240</link>
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Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:07:33 CST
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<tr><td><b>Mongo wrote:</b><br />
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<P>Interesting view.</P>
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<P>Beautiful find Mongo.I was gonna post it myself as Totten is one of my favorite Iraq writers.</P>
<P> </P> ]]>
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<title>Kosovo declares independence! (Author: Brian Foley / Forum: Current events)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=115202&amp;get=last#224205</link>
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Wed, 27 Aug 2008 03:48:37 CST
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<![CDATA[  <table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>M Mandel wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">For purposes of communication, that means that it is a separate language. What people want to call a "language" and what they want to call a "dialect" depends as much on politics as it does on facts, but there's no scientific basis to say that Kosova Albanian is not a language.</td>
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</table> <br />Gheg Albanian is not endemic to Kosovo .<br /><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b> wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gheg_language" target="_blank">Gheg Albanian</a><br />Gheg (or Geg) is one of the two major dialects of the Albanian language. The other is Tosk, which is the main basis for the standard form of Albanian. The dividing line between these two dialects is the Shkumbin River, which winds its way through central Albania.<br /><br /><strong>Gheg is spoken in Northern Albania, parts of the Republic of Macedonia, and Montenegro (Albanian: Mali i Zi), and by the Albanians of Kosovo and Central Serbia (mostly the cities of Preševo, Bujanovac, and Medve&#273;a).</strong></td>
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</table><br />According to this summation it is spoken in Northern Albania . So this means that those Albanians who migrated to Kosovar , originated from Northern Albania where the dialect is Gheg , not from Southern Albania where they speak Tosk . <br /> ]]>
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<title>9/11 story? (Author: Brian Foley / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130993&amp;get=last#224204</link>
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Wed, 27 Aug 2008 03:28:07 CST
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<tr><td><b>Naeman wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text"><img border="0" src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif" border="0"> But I don't want to take everything at face value either.</td>
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</table> <br />Okay , this is from the FBI's own Investigation into the 9/11 attacks , note that the Investigation verifies the finds of the passports . And note that the concluding statement I highlighted .<br /><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>Wikipedia wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PENTTBOM#Passports_recovered" target="_blank">Passports recovered</a><br /><br />According to testimony by Susan Ginsberg, a staff member of the National Commission on Terrorist attacks upon the United States, in the January 26, 2004 Public Hearing:<br /><br />    <em>"Four of the hijackers passports have survived in whole or in part. Two were recovered from the crash site of United Airlines flight 93 in Pennsylvania. These are the passports of Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al Ghamdi. One belonged to a hijacker on American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Satam al Suqami. A passerby picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed. A fourth passport was recovered from luggage that did not make it from a Portland flight to Boston on to the connecting flight which was American Airlines flight 11. This is the passport of Abdul Aziz al Omari."</em><br /> <br />WTC site<br /><br /><strong>The passport of hijacker Satam al-Suqami was found a few blocks from the World Trade Center. <br /><br /> Flight 93<br /><br />According to the 9/11 Commission, the passports of two of the hijackers Flight 93 were also found intact in the aircraft's debris field. </strong><br /><br />When examining Mohamed Atta's left-behind luggage, the FBI found important clues about the hijackers and their plans. His luggage contained papers that revealed the identity of all 19 hijackers, and provided information about their plans, motives, and backgrounds.[8] The FBI was able to determine details such as dates of birth, known and/or possible residences, visa status, and specific identity of the suspected pilots. <strong>However, none of these documents have been scrutinized by independent legal experts.</strong></td>
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</table><br />So these passports survived the intense heat which cremated the entire passenger list . The fact this evidence was not verified by independent legal experts is telling of a cover up .<br /><br />Here is an investigative piece by the reputable newspaper "The Guardian" written some months after 9/11 :<br /><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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       <td class="text"><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/mar/19/september11.iraq" target="_blank">Uncle Sam's lucky finds</a><br /><br />On Sunday night the United States prepared for fresh strikes against new pockets of al-Qaida and Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. At almost exactly the same time, American intelligence revealed that they had uncovered an increase in money being transferred between groups of al-Qaida fighters. According to my reckoning, this is the 14th handy thing that American intelligence has discovered since September 11. Think back over the past six months and it becomes ineluctable: never in the history of modern warfare has so much been found so opportunely.<br /><br /><strong>In less than a week came another find, two blocks away from the twin towers, in the shape of Atta's passport. We had all seen the blizzard of paper rain down from the towers, but the idea that Atta's passport had escaped from that inferno unsinged would have tested the credulity of the staunchest supporter of the FBI's crackdown on terrorism.</strong></td>
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</table><br />There is no way 19 men who were under surveillance by the German, French and British Intelligence could of infiltrated America to hijack 4 planes without the knowledge of the FBI and CIA . <br /><br />After the attack a mass of incriminating evidence from photos at Bank teller machines to pilot courses were presented to the public . You have to say to yourself that the evidence presented of these men at Las Vegas consorting with hookers and drinking booze contradicts the view of pious Moslems .<br /><br />You only have to study the case of the <a href="http://marxists.architexturez.net/history/etol/newspape/ni/vol02/no01/lore.htm" target="_blank">The Reichstag Fire</a> or the fitting up of <br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3054359" target="_blank">George Elser</a> for an attempted assaisnation of Hitler . The same principal manufacture an outrage and the public becomes outraged and you have public consent .<br /> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: odin / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224174</link>
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Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:43:11 CST
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<tr><td><b>Mongo wrote:</b><br />
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<P>Willing my ass. I am sure the farmers are willing to starve so that China can have it's Olympics.</P>
<P>They are willing because they are told to be willing. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0"> </P>
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<P><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/uploads/smileys/admin/heavy_laughing.gif" border="0"></P> ]]>
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<title>US aids Georgia , US soldier captured (Author: Mongo / Forum: Current events)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=129751&amp;get=last#224173</link>
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Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:29:08 CST
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<![CDATA[ <P>Interesting view.</P>
<P><A href="http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php" target="_blank">http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php</A></P>
<P> </P>
<P>[quote]</P>
<H2 =date>August 26, 2008</H2>
<DIV =blog>
<H3 =title>The Truth About Russia in Georgia</H3>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="I Am Georgia Stop Russia.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/I%20Am%20Georgia%20Stop%20Russia.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
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<P><SPAN =caps>TBILISI, GEORGIA </SPAN>– Virtually everyone believes Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili foolishly provoked a Russian invasion on August 7, 2008, when he sent troops into the breakaway district of South Ossetia. “The warfare began Aug. 7 when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia,” the Associated Press <A href="http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/23/europe/EU-Georgia-Russia-Looting.php" target="_blank"><FONT color=#0000ff>reported</FONT></A> over the weekend in typical fashion.</P>
<P>Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn't start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened <I>before</I> Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war. </P>
<P>Regional expert, German native, and former European Commission official Patrick Worms was recently hired by the Georgian government as a media advisor, and he explained to me exactly what happened when I met him in downtown Tbilisi. You should always be careful with the version of events told by someone on government payroll even when the government is as friendly and democratic as Georgia's. I was lucky, though, that another regional expert, author and academic Thomas Goltz, was present during Worms' briefing to me and signed off on it as completely accurate aside from one tiny quibble. </P>
<P>Goltz has been writing about the Caucasus region for almost 20 years, and he isn't on Georgian government payroll. He earns his living from the University of Montana and from the sales of his books <A href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&amp;location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAzerbaijan-Diary-Reporters-Adventures-Post-Soviet%2Fdp%2F076560244X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1219615319%26sr%3D8-1&amp;tag=michajtottesm-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325" target="_blank"><FONT color=#0000ff>Azerbaijan Diary</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff><IMG style="MARGIN: 0px; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none! important" height=1 alt="" src="http://www.assoc-amazon/e/irt=michajtottesm-20&amp;l=ur2&amp;o=1" width=1 border="0"></FONT>, <A href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&amp;location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGeorgia-Diary-Chronicle-Political-Post-soviet%2Fdp%2F0765617102%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1219615180%26sr%3D8-1&amp;tag=michajtottesm-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325" target="_blank"><FONT color=#0000ff>Georgia Diary</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff><IMG style="MARGIN: 0px; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none! important" height=1 alt="" src="http://www.assoc-amazon/e/irt=michajtottesm-20&amp;l=ur2&amp;o=1" width=1 border="0"></FONT> and <A href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&amp;location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FChechnya-Diary-Correspondents-Story-Surviving%2Fdp%2F0312268742%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1219615379%26sr%3D1-1&amp;tag=michajtottesm-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325" target="_blank"><FONT color=#0000ff>Chechnya Diary</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff><IMG style="MARGIN: 0px; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none! important" height=1 alt="" src="http://www.assoc-amazon/e/irt=michajtottesm-20&amp;l=ur2&amp;o=1" width=1 border="0"></FONT>. Goltz experienced these three Caucasus republics at their absolute worst, and he knows the players and the events better than just about anyone. Every journalist in Tbilisi seeks him out as the old hand who knows more than the rest of us put together, and he wanted to hear Patrick Worms' spiel to reporters in part to ensure its accuracy. </P>
<P>“You,” Worms said to Goltz just before he started to flesh out the real story to me, “are going to be bored because I'm going to give some back story that you know better than I do.”</P>
<P>“Go,” Goltz said. “Go.”</P>
<P>The back story began at least as early as the time of the Soviet Union. I turned on my digital voice recorder so I wouldn't miss anything that was said. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Patrick Worms Map Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Patrick%20Worms%20Map%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Patrick Worms</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“A key tool that the Soviet Union used to keep its empire together,” Worms said to me, “was pitting ethnic groups against one another. They did this extremely skillfully in the sense that they never generated ethnic wars within their own territory. But when the Soviet Union collapsed it became an essential Russian policy to weaken the states on its periphery by activating the ethnic fuses they planted.</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Peacekeeper Poster Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Peacekeeper%20Poster%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>A poster on a wall in Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“They tried that in a number of countries. They tried it in the Baltic states, but the fuses were defused. Nothing much happened. They tried it in Ukraine. It has not happened yet, but it's getting hotter. They tried it in Moldova. There it worked, and now we have Transnitria. They tried it in Armenia and Azerbaijan and it went beyond their wildest dreams and we ended up with a massive, massive war. And they tried it in two territories in Georgia, which I'll talk about in a minute. They didn't try it in Central Asia because basically all the presidents of the newly independent countries were the former heads of the communist parties and they said <I>we're still following your line, Kremlin, we haven't changed very much.</I>”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Nagorno-Karabakh Map2.JPG" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Nagorno-Karabakh%20Map2.JPG" border="0"></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>He's right about the massive war between Armenia and Azerbaijan, though few outside the region know much about it. Armenians and Azeris very thoroughly transferred Azeris and Armenians “back” to their respective mother countries after the Soviet Union collapsed through pogroms, massacres, and ethnic-cleansing. Hundreds of thousands of refugees fled savage communal warfare in terror. The Armenian military still occupies the ethnic-Armenian Nagorno-Karabakh region in southwestern Azerbaijan. It's another so-called “frozen conflict” in the Caucasus region waiting to thaw. Moscow takes the Armenian side and could blow up Nagorno-Karabakh, and subsequently all of Azerbaijan, at any time. After hearing the strident Azeri point of view on the conflict for a week before I arrived in Georgia, I'd say that particular ethnic-nationalist fuse is about one millimeter in length. </P>
<P>“Now the story starts really in 1992 when this fuse was lit in Georgia,” Worms said. “Now, there's two territories. There's Abkhazia which has clearly defined administrative borders, and there's South Ossetia that doesn't. Before the troubles started, Abkhazia was an extremely ethnically mixed area: about 60 percent Georgian, 20 percent Abkhaz, and 20 percent assorted others – Greeks, Estonians, Armenians, Jews, what have you. In Ossetia it was a completely integrated and completely mixed Ossetian-Georgian population. The Ossetians and the Georgians have never been apart in the sense that they were living in their own little villages and doing their own little things. There has been inter-marriage and a sense of common understanding going back to distant history. The Georgians will tell you about King Tamar – that's a woman, but they called her a king – and she was married to an Ossetian. So the fuse was lit and two wars start, one in Abkhazia and one in South Ossetia.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Georgia Map.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Georgia%20Map.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Georgia</I></CENTER>
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<P>South Ossetia is inside Georgia, while North Ossetia is inside Russia.</P>
<P>“The fuse was not just lit in Moscow,” he said. “It was also lit in Tbilisi. There was a guy in charge here, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, a little bit like [Serbian Nationalist war criminal in Bosnia Radovan] Karadzic. He was a poet. He was an intellectual. But he was one of these guys who veered off into ethnic exclusivism. He made stupid declarations like <I>Georgia is only for the Georgians</I>. If you're running a multi-ethnic country, that is really not a clever thing to say. The central control of the state was extremely weak. The Russians were trying to make things worse. There was a civil war between Georgians and Tbilisi. But the key thing is that here there were militias, Georgian militias, and some of them pretty nasty.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Thomas Goltz Briefing Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Thomas%20Goltz%20Briefing%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Thomas Goltz</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>Thomas Goltz then interjected his only critique of Patrick Worms' explanation of events that led to this war. “It started in 1991,” he said, “but it went into 1992 and 1993, as well.” Then he turned to me. “This guy, [Zviad] Gamsakhurdia, was driven from power from across the street. They bombed this place.” He meant the Marriott Hotel. We stood in the lobby where Worms had set up his media relations operation. “There's a horrible picture in my Georgia book of this facade.”</P>
<P>“Of this building?” I said. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Marriot Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Marriot%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Marriot Hotel (right), Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Yeah,” Goltz said. “That was December 1991. He fled in December 1991.”</P>
<P>“Where did he go?” I said. </P>
<P>“To Chechnya,” Goltz said. “Of course. He led the government in exile until he came back in 1993 then died obscurely in the mountains, of suicide some people say, others say cancer. Then he was buried in Grozny.” He turned then again to Patrick Worms. “1991,” he said. “Not 1992.”</P>
<P>“1991,” Worms said. “Okay.”</P>
<P>So aside from that quibble, everything else Worms said to me was vouched for as accurate by the man who literally wrote the book on this conflict from the point of view of both academic and witness. </P>
<P>“So in 1991,” Worms said, “things here explode. And basically it gets pretty nasty. Thomas can tell you what happened. <A href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&amp;location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGeorgia-Diary-Chronicle-Political-Post-soviet%2Fdp%2F0765617102%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1219615180%26sr%3D8-1&amp;tag=michajtottesm-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325" target="_blank"><FONT color=#0000ff>Read his book</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff><IMG style="MARGIN: 0px; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none! important; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none! important" height=1 alt="" src="http://www.assoc-amazon/e/irt=michajtottesm-20&amp;l=ur2&amp;o=1" width=1 border="0"></FONT>, it's worth it. And by the time the dust settles, there are between 20,000 and 30,000 dead. Many atrocities committed by both sides, but mostly – at least that's what the Georgians say – by the Abkhaz. And the end result is everybody gets kicked out. Everybody who is not Abkhaz or Russian gets kicked out. That's about 400,000 people. 250,000 of those still live as Internally Displaced Persons within Georgia. As for the rest: the Greeks have gone back to Greece, the Armenians to Armenia, some Abkhaz to Turkey, etc.</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Abkhazia Map.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Abkhazia%20Map.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Abkhazia (upper left)</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“When it's over,” he said, “you've got two bits of Abkhazia which are not ethnic Abkhazia. You've got Gali district which is filled with ethnic Georgians. And you've got the Kodori Gorge which is filled with another bunch of Georgians. So there the end result was a classic case of ethnic-cleansing, but the world didn't pay much attention because it was happening at the same time as the Yugoslav wars. Ossetia was different. Ossetia also had a war that started about the same time, and it was also pretty nasty, but it never quite succeeded in generating a consolidated bit of territory that Ossetians could keep their own. When the dust settled there, you ended up with a patchwork of Georgian and Ossetian villages. Before the war, Ossetians and Georgians lived together in the same villages. After the war they lived in separate villages. But there were still contacts. People were talking, people were trading. It wasn't quite as nasty as it was in Abkhazia.</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="South Ossetia Map.JPG" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/South%20Ossetia%20Map.JPG" border="0"></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Now fast forward to the Rose Revolution,” he said.</P>
<P>The Rose Revolution was a popular bloodless revolution that brought Georgia's current president Mikheil Saakashvili to power and replaced the old man of Georgian politics Eduard Shevardnadze who basically ran the country Soviet-style. </P>
<P>“The first thing that Misha [Mikheil Saakashvili] did was try to poke his finger in [Russian President Vladimir] Putin's eyes as many times as possible,” Worms said, “most notably by wanting to join <SPAN =caps>NATO.</SPAN> The West, in my view, mishandled this situation. America gave the wrong signals. So did Europe.”</P>
<P>“Can you elaborate on that a bit?” I said. </P>
<P>“I will,” he said. “But basically the encouragement was given despite stronger and stronger Russian signals that a Georgian accession to <SPAN =caps>NATO </SPAN>would not be tolerated. Fast forward to 2008, to this year, to the meeting of <SPAN =caps>NATO </SPAN>heads of state that took place in Bucharest, Romania, where Georgia was promised eventual membership of the organization but was refused what it really wanted, which was the so-called Membership Action Plan. The Membership Action Plan is the bureaucratic tool <SPAN =caps>NATO </SPAN>uses to prepare countries for membership. And this despite the fact that military experts will tell you that the Georgian Army, which had been reformed root and branch with American support, was now in better shape and more able to meet <SPAN =caps>NATO </SPAN>aspirations than the armies of Albania and Macedonia which got offered membership at the same meeting.</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Night Shot Tbilisi 3.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Night%20Shot%20Tbilisi%203.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Just a little bit of back story again, in July of 2007 Russia withdrew from the Conventional Forces Treaty in Europe. This is a Soviet era treaty that dictates where <SPAN =caps>NATO </SPAN>and the Warsaw Pact can keep their conventional armor around their territories. Russia started moving a lot of materiel south. After Bucharest, provocations started. Russian provocations started, and they were mostly in Abkhazia. </P>
<P>“One provocation was to use the Russian media to launch shrill accusations that the Georgian army was in Kodori preparing for an invasion of Abkhazia. Now if you go up there – I took a bunch of journalists up there a few times – when you get to the actual checkpoint you have a wall of crumbling rock, a wooden bridge, another wall of crumbling rock, a raging torrent, and a steep mountainside filled with woods. It's not possible to invade out or invade in unless you've got air support. Which is why the Abkhaz were never able to kick these Georgians out. They just kept that bit of territory.”</P>
<P>He paused and looked over at Thomas Goltz as though he was bracing for a critique. </P>
<P>“I'm just doing what I've done already,” he said, “but this time I'm getting advice from an expert on how I'm doing.”</P>
<P>Thomas Goltz silently nodded. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Walls and Church Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Walls%20and%20Church%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Kodori provocations,” Worms continued, “and other provocations. First the Russians had a peacekeeping base under a 1994 agreement that allowed them to keep the peace in both Abkhazia and South Ossetia. They added paratroopers, crack paratroopers, with modern weaponry there. That doesn't sound a lot like peacekeeping. A further provocation: they start shooting unmanned Georgian aircraft drones out the sky. One of them was caught on camera by the drone as it was about to be destroyed. The United Nations confirmed that it was a Russian plane that did this. It probably took off from an airbase that the Russians were supposed to have vacated a few years ago, but they never let the <SPAN =caps>OSCE </SPAN>[Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe] in to check. </P>
<P>“The next provocation: On April 16 Putin signs a presidential decree recognizing the documents of Abkhazians and South Ossetians in Russia and vice versa. This effectively integrates these two territories into Russia's legal space. The Georgians were furious. So you have all these provocations mounting and mounting and mounting. Meanwhile, as of July, various air corps start moving from the rest of Russia to get closer to the Caucasus. These are obscure details, but they are available. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Stop Russia Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Stop%20Russia%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>A poster on a wall in Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Starting in mid July the Russians launched the biggest military exercise in the North Caucasus that they've held since the Chechnya war. That exercise never stopped. It just turned into a war. They had all their elite troops there, all their armor there, all their stuff there. Everyone still foolishly thought the action was going to be in Abkhazia or in Chechnya, which is still not as peaceful as they'd like it to be. </P>
<P>“The Georgians had their crack troops in Iraq. So what was left at their central base in Gori? Not very much. Just Soviet era equipment and not their best troops. They didn't place troops on the border with Abkhazia because they didn't want to provoke the Abkhaz. They were expecting an attempt on Kodori, but the gorge is in such a way that unless they're going to use massive air support – which the Abkhaz don't have – it's impossible to take that place. Otherwise they would have done it already. </P>
<P>“So fast forward to early August. You have a town, Tskhinvali, which is Ossetian, and a bunch of Georgian villages surrounding it in a crescent shape. There are peacekeepers there. Both Russian peacekeepers and Georgian peacekeepers under a 1994 accord. The Ossetians were dug in in the town, and the Georgians were in the forests and the fields between the town and the villages. The Ossetians start provoking and provoking and provoking by shelling Georgian positions and Georgian villages around there. And it's a classic tit for tat thing. You shell, I shell back. The Georgians offered repeated ceasefires, which the Ossetians broke. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Friendliness Poster Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Friendliness%20Poster%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>A poster on a wall in Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“On August 3, the head of the local administration says he's evacuating his civilians. You also need to know one thing: you may be wondering what these areas live off, especially in Ossetia, there's no industry there. Georgia is poor, but Ossetia is poorer. It's basically a smuggler's paradise. There was a sting operation that netted three kilograms of highly enriched uranium. There are fake hundred dollar bills to the tune of at least 50 million dollars that have been printed. [South Ossetian “President” Eduard] Kokoity himself is a former wrestler and a former bodyguard who was promoted to the presidency by powerful Ossetian families as their puppet. What does that mean in practice? It means that if you are a young man, you have no choice. You can either live in absolute misery, or you can take the government's dime and join the militia. It happened in both territories. </P>
<P>“On top of that, for the last four years the Russians have been dishing out passports to anyone who asks in those areas. All you have to do is present your Ossetian or Abkhaz papers and a photo and you get a Russian passport on the spot. If you live in Moscow and try to get a Russian passport, you have the normal procedure to follow, and it takes years. So suddenly you have a lot of Ossetian militiamen and Abkhaz militiamen with Russian passports in effect paid by Russian subsidies. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Night Shot Tbilisi 1.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Night%20Shot%20Tbilisi%201.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“So back to the 3rd of August. Kokoity announces women and children should leave. As it later turned out, he made all the civilians leave who were not fighting or did not have fighting capabilities. On the same day, irregulars – Ingush, Chechen, Ossetians, and Cossacks – start coming in and spreading out into the countryside but don't do anything. They just sit and wait. On the 6th of August the shelling intensifies from Ossetian positions. And for the first time since the war finished in 1992, they are using 120mm guns.”</P>
<P>“Can I stop you for a second?” I said. I was still under the impression that the war began on August 7 and that Georgian President Saakashvili started it when he sent troops into South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali. What was all this about the Ossetian violence on August 6 and before?</P>
<P>He raised his hand as if to say <I>stop</I>. </P>
<P>“That was the formal start of the war,” he said. “Because of the peace agreement they had, nobody was allowed to have guns bigger than 80mm. Okay, so that's the formal start of the war. It wasn't the attack on Tskhinvali. Now stop me.”</P>
<P>“Okay,” I said. “All the reports I've read say Saakashvili started the war.”</P>
<P>“I'm not yet on the 7th,” he said. “I'm on the 6th.”</P>
<P>“Okay,” I said. He had given this explanation to reporters before, and he knew exactly what I was thinking. </P>
<P>“Saakashvili is accused of starting this war on the 7th,” he said. </P>
<P>“Right,” I said. “But that sounds like complete bs to me if what you say is true.”</P>
<P>Thomas Goltz nodded. </P>
<P>
<CENTER>*</CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>I later met wounded Georgian soldiers in a Tbilisi hospital who confirmed what Patrick Worms had told me about what happened when the war actually started. I felt apprehensive about meeting wounded soldiers. Would they really want to talk to someone in the media or would they rather spend their time healing in peace?</P>
<P>My translator spoke to some of the doctors in the hospital who directed us to Georgian soldiers and a civilian who were wounded in South Ossetia and felt okay enough to speak to a foreign reporter. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Kaha Bragadze.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Kaha%20Bragadze.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Kaha Bragadze</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Every day and every hour the Russian side lied,” Georgian soldier Kaha Bragadze said. “It must be stopped. If not today, then maybe tomorrow. My troops were in our village, Avnevi. On the 6th of August they blew up our troops' four-wheel-drives, our pickups. They blew them up. Also in this village – it was August 5th or 6th, I can't remember – they started bombing us with shells. Two soldiers died that day, our peacekeepers. The Ossetians had a good position on the hill. They could see all our positions and our villages, and they started bombing. They went to the top of the hill, bombed us, then went down. We couldn't see who was shooting at us.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Kaha Bragadze Leg.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Kaha%20Bragadze%20Leg.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Kaha Bragadze's leg wounded by shrapnel from a Russian air strike</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Which day was this?” I said. “The 5th or the 6th?”</P>
<P>“I don't remember,” he said. “But it started that day from that place when two Georgians were killed.”</P>
<P>“Were they just bombing you the peacekeepers,” I said, “or also civilians and villages?”</P>
<P>“Before they started bombing us they took all the civilians out of their villages,” he said. “Then they started damaging our villages – houses, a gas pipe, roads, yards. They killed our animals. They evacuated their villages, then bombed our villages.”</P>
<P>Another Georgian soldier, Giorgi Khosiashvili, concurred</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Giorgi Khosiashvili.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Giorgi%20Khosiashvili.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Giorgi Khosiashvili</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“I was a peace keeper as well,” he said, “but in another village. I was fired upon on August 6th. On the 5th of August they started shooting. They blew up our peacekeeping trucks. They put a bomb on the road and when they were driving they were blown up. They also mined the roads used by civilians. On the 6th of August they started bombing Avnevi. And at this time they took the civilians out of Tskhinvali and sent them to North Ossetia [inside Russia].”</P>
<P>“I saw this on <SPAN =caps>TV,</SPAN>” said Alex, my translator. “They took the civilians, kids, women, and put them on the bus and sent them to North Ossetia.”</P>
<P>A civilian man, Koba Mindiashvili, shared the hospital room with the Georgian soldiers. He, too, was in South Ossetia where he lived outside Tskhinvali. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Koba Mindiashvili.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Koba%20Mindiashvili.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Koba Mindiashvili</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“When they started bombing my village,” he said, “I was running away and the soldiers wounded me. They robbed me and shot me in the leg with a Kalashnikov. I don't know if it was Russians or Ossetians. They took my car, took my gold chain, and shot me.”</P>
<P>“They didn't care if it was a house or a military camp,” Giorgi Khosiashvili said. “They bombed everything.”</P>
<P>“You actually saw this for yourself?” I said. </P>
<P>“Yes,” he said. “I saw it. It was the Russian military airplanes. If they knew it was a Georgian village, they bombed all the houses. Many civilians were killed from this bombing.”</P>
<P>“It was Russians or Ossetians who did this?” I said. </P>
<P>“It was Russians,” he said. “The Ossetians don't have any jets.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER>*</CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>Back at the Marriott Hotel in downtown Tbilisi, Patrick Worms continued fleshing out the rest of the story. “Let me tell you what happened on the 7th,” he said. “On the 6th, while this is going on, the integration minister who was until a few months ago an <SPAN =caps>NGO </SPAN>guy and who believes in soft power things, tried to go there and meet the separatist leadership. The meeting doesn't happen for farcical reasons. The shelling intensifies during the night and there is, again, tit for tat, but this time with weapons coming from the South Ossetian side which are not allowed under the agreement. By that time, the Georgians were seriously worried. All their armor that was near Abkhazia starts moving, but they are tanks, they don't have tank transporters, so they move slowly. They don't make it back in time. On the 7th, this continues. That afternoon, the president announces a unilateral ceasefire, a different one from the previous ones. It means <I>I stop firing first, and if you fire, I still won't fire back</I>. That holds until the next part of the story. </P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Peace Vigil Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Peace%20Vigil%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Peace vigil, Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“On the evening of the 7th, the Ossetians launch an all-out barrage focused on Georgian <I>villages</I>, not on Georgian positions. Remember, these Georgian villages inside South Ossetia – the Georgians have mostly evacuated those villages, and three of them are completely pulverized. That evening, the 7th, the president gets information that a large Russian column is on the move. Later that evening, somebody sees those vehicles emerging from the Roki tunnel [into Georgia from Russia]. Then a little bit later, somebody else sees them. That's three confirmations. It was time to act. </P>
<P>“What they had in the area was peacekeeping stuff, not stuff for fighting a war. They had to stop that column, and they had to stop it for two reasons. It's a pretty steep valley. If they could stop the Russians there, they would be stuck in the tunnel and they couldn't send the rest of their army through. So they did two things. The first thing they did, and it happened at roughly the same time, they tried to get through [South Ossetian capital] Tskhinvali, and that's when everybody says Saakashvili started the war. It wasn't about taking Ossetia back, it was about fighting their way through that town to get onto that road to slow the Russian advance. The second thing they did, they dropped a team of paratroopers to destroy a bridge. They got wiped out, but first they managed to destroy the bridge and about 15 Russian vehicles. </P>
<P>“The Georgians will tell you that they estimate that these two actions together slowed the Russian advance by 24 to 48 hours. That is what the world considered to be Misha's game. And you know why the world considers it that? Because here in South Ossetia was the head of the peacekeeping troops. He hasn't been in Iraq, he's a peace keeper. What have they been told for the last four years? They lived in a failed state, then there was the Rose Revolution – it wasn't perfect but, damn, now there's electricity, there's jobs, roads have been fixed – and what the Georgians have had drummed into them is that Georgia is now a constitutional state, a state of law and order. And everybody here knows that Ossetia is a gangster's smuggler's paradise. The whole world knows it, but here they know it particularly well. The peacekeepers had a military objective, and the first rule of warfare when you're talking to the media is not to reveal to your enemy what you're going to do. So they weren't going to blather into a microphone and say <I>well, actually, I'm trying to go through Tskhinvali in order to stop the Russians</I>. So what did he say instead? <I>I'm here to restore constitutional order in South Ossetia</I>. And that's it. With that, Georgia lost the propaganda war and the world believes Saakashvili started it. And the rest of the story...you know.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Night Shot Tbilisi 2.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Night%20Shot%20Tbilisi%202.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Let me make a couple of comments,” Goltz said. </P>
<P>“That,” Worms said, “to the best of my knowledge, is all true.”</P>
<P>“Let's just start at the ass end,” Goltz said to me. “This is your first time to the lands of the former Soviet Union?”</P>
<P>“Yes,” I said. </P>
<P>“<I>The restoration of constitutional order</I>,” he said, “may sound just like a rhetorical flourish with no echo in the American mindset. What it means in the post-Soviet mindset is what Boris Yeltsin was doing in Chechnya. This was the stupidest phrase this guy possibly could have used. That's why people want to lynch him.”</P>
<P>Goltz was referring to the head of the Georgian peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia. He turned then to Patrick Worms. “Your presentation was deliciously comprehensive. Perhaps it was...we'll ask our new friend Michael...too much information out of the gate to absorb.”</P>
<P>“I absorbed it,” I said. </P>
<P>“Okay,” Goltz said. </P>
<P>“Am I making any mistakes?” Worms said to Goltz. “Am I forgetting anything?”</P>
<P>“Well,” Goltz said, “there are some details that I would chip in. Who are the Ossetians and where do they live? This is the question that has been lost in all of the static from this story. This autonomy [South Ossetia] is an autonomous <I>district</I>, as opposed to an autonomous <I>republic</I>, with about 60,000 people max. So, where are the rest of the Ossetians? Guess where they live? Tbilisi. Here. There. Everywhere. There are more Ossetians – take a look around this lobby. You will find Ossetians here. Of those Ossetians who are theoretically citizens of the Republic of Georgia, 60,000 live there and around 40,000 live here.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Cross Outside Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Cross%20Outside%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>A roadside cross outside Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“What do they think about all this?” I said. </P>
<P>“They're scared as <I>shit</I>,” Goltz said. </P>
<P>“Are they on the side of those who live in South Ossetia?” I said. </P>
<P>“<I>No</I>,” he said. “One of them is Georgia's Minister of Defense. Georgia is a multi-ethnic republic. And the whole point of the Ossetian ethnic question is this: South Ossetia is part of Georgia.”</P>
<P>“Are reporters receptive to what you're saying?” I said to Worms.</P>
<P>“Everyone is receptive,” he said. “Everyone, regardless of nationality, even those who love Georgia, genuinely thought Saakashvili started it.”</P>
<P>“That's what I thought,” I said. “That's what everyone has been writing.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Putin Hopscotch Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Putin%20Hopscotch%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Vladimir Putin's face used for hopscotch, Tbilisi, Georgia</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>“Yes,” he said. “Absolutely. We've been trying to tell the world about this for months. If you go back and look at the archives you'll see plenty of calls from the Georgian government saying they're really worried. Even some Russian commentators agree that this is exactly what happened. Don't forget, they sent in a lot of irregulars, Chechens, Cossacks, Ossetians, Ingush – basically thugs. Not normal Chechens or Ingush – thugs. Thugs out for a holiday. Many Western camera crews were robbed at gunpoint ten meters from Russian tanks while Russian commanders just stood there smoking their cigarettes while the irregulars...that happened to a Turkish TV crew. They're lucky to still be alive. Some of the Georgians were picked up by the irregulars. If they happened to be female, they got raped. If they happened to be male, they got shot immediately, sometimes tortured. Injured people we have in hospitals who managed to get out have had arms chopped off, eyes gouged out, and their tongues ripped out.”</P>
<P>
<CENTER><IMG alt="Putin Sidewalk Georgia Flag Tbilisi.jpg" src="http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Putin%20Sidewalk%20Georgia%20Flag%20Tbilisi.jpg" border="0"></CENTER>
<CENTER><I>Vladimir Putin</I></CENTER>
<P></P>
<P>Russian rules of engagement, so to speak, go down harder than communism. And the Soviet era habits of disinformation are alive and well. </P>
<P>“You also have to remember the propaganda campaign that came out,” he said. “Human Rights Watch is accusing the Russian authorities of being indirectly responsible for the massive ethnic cleansing of Georgians that happened in South Ossetia. The Ossetians are claiming that the Georgians killed 2,000 people in Tskhinvali, but when Human Rights Watch got in there a few days ago and talked to the hospital director, he had received 44 bodies. There was nobody left in that town. Plus it's the oldest law of warfare: have your guns in populated areas, and when the enemy responds, show the world your dead women and children. </P>
<P>“Right,” I said. “That goes on a lot where I usually work, in the Middle East.”</P>
<P>“Yes,” he said. “That's <I>exactly</I> what the Russians were doing.”</P></DIV> ]]>
</description></item><item>
<title>9/11 story? (Author: Mongo / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130993&amp;get=last#224172</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:25:28 CST
</pubDate>
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<tr><td><b>Naeman wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">http://www.prisonplanet.com/father_insists_alleged_leader_of_attack_on_wtc_is_still_alive.htm<BR><BR>I found this one interesting. It looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of research on what's credible and what's not.</td>
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<P>Prison planet is not credible.</P>
<P>Check the facts, do not take anything on a truther site serious unless you have double and triple checked their theory.</P>
<P>They are masters at cherry picking, quote mining, and fallacies of logic. They like to point at things that seem unusual and out of place and make up a story that it could not have happened that way.</P>
<P>Not one truther has  come up with a model on how the events took place if it was an inside job.</P>
<P>From all the truther theories you can reverse engineer a feasability study. Their plan would have to be so complicated, involving 100's of people, and be such a risk to get it accomplished that no one would even attempt the plan. It just would not work.</P>
<P>Plus you can debunk most points the truthers believe in. Like the pictures of cut girders, the claim of pools of molten steele, That steel has to melt before the building would colapse and the heat needed could not have been done by the fires. The list goes on and on exposing their thheory for what it is.</P>
<P>Nothing but a conspiracy theory. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies south for the winter. Then it must be a duck. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"></P> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: Mongo / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224171</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:15:19 CST
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<![CDATA[ <table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
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<TD =bold>odin wrote:<BR>
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<TD =text><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"> Their doing the same thing over here. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></P>
<P>One difference. In China people are willing in Britain people aren't. </P>
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<P>That is pure BULLSHIT!!!!!!</P>
<P>Willing my ass. I am sure the farmers are willing to starve so that China can have it's Olympics.</P>
<P>They are willing because they are told to be willing. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0"> </P> ]]>
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<title>Bye Bye Whitey. (Author: odin / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130052&amp;get=last#224169</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:04:08 CST
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<![CDATA[ <P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">I'm sure you wouldn't either and wish you're wrong).</td>
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<P>Yes, I would be extreamley happy if I was wrong about it!</P> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: odin / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224164</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:56:26 CST
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<![CDATA[ <P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
   <table width="100%" border="2" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" bgcolor="#E4EAF2">
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       <td class="text">One difference. In China people are willing in Britain people aren't.</td>
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<P>Do you blame them? When their country is being taken away from them &amp; being given to colonizers. Also remember the only people who are paying for it over here are Londoners who are forced to pay extra council tax while the rest of the country pay nothing to wards it.</P>
<P> </P>
<P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">The Government can spend as much as it like without serious criticism.</td>
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<P>Yes, because China is full of Chinese people who are proud of their country. </P>
<P> </P>
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<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">This is a matter of our DIGNITY</td>
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<P>I wonder how much dignity they would feel if they were being over populated by people from third world country's. Where the indigenous Chinese could not get a home unless they were from the rich class, as all social housing was being given away to the people from the third world, even though the taxes from the poor indigenous people, had paid for the housing in the first place.</P>
<P>Remember to have a family you need some where to live!</P> ]]>
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<title>Bye Bye Whitey. (Author: p5726 / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130052&amp;get=last#224157</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:52:43 CST
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<![CDATA[ <P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>odin wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">Yes exactly, &amp; they also feel no allegiance to the country, in fact I think I have spoken to a Chinese person who still has more allegiance to China even though he lives over here! <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0"></td>
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<P>Not exactly 'allegiance'<IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"> My views are of a typical Chinese so naturally I reject Western views such as democracy and human rights. I would still hold the same ground no matter what nationality as long as I have the same political beliefs but of course if not brought up in a Chinese background then I won't have these views. You can only show 'allegiance' if the two sides are in conflict but Britain and China are not at least not directly.</P>
<P>I can see where you're coming from with your claims but it still hard to believe... and part of me don't want to believe (I'm sure you wouldn't either and wish you're wrong). This is just like me telling you all about situation in China but at least you and I more open minded the Mongo.</P> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: p5726 / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224156</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:44:53 CST
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<description>
<![CDATA[ <P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>Mongo wrote:</b><br />
   <table width="100%" border="2" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" bgcolor="#E4EAF2">
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       <td class="text">I am sure the propaganda that you read makes you believe that we do see it just like that.</td>
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<P>According to Western media: the Chinese invaded Tibet and took their land and colonised it - just what the white settlers did in Australia and indeed Canada and the US!!!</P>
<P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>odin wrote:</b><br />
   <table width="100%" border="2" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" bgcolor="#E4EAF2">
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       <td class="text"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"> Their doing the same thing over here. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.org/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"></td>
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<P>One difference. In China people are willing in Britain people aren't. Chinese people have been dreaming to have the Olympics for a century and it finally came true. The Government can spend as much as it like without serious criticism. This is a matter of our DIGNITY and how much are you willing to pay for your dignity? It all stems back to the period when we were called 'the Sick Man of Asia'.</P> ]]>
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<title>9/11 story? (Author: Naeman / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130993&amp;get=last#224151</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:51:55 CST
</pubDate>
<description>
<![CDATA[ http://www.prisonplanet.com/father_insists_alleged_leader_of_attack_on_wtc_is_still_alive.htm<br><br>I found this one interesting. It looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of research on what's credible and what's not. These days I'm more likely to trust  less mainstream media. <img src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif" border="0"> But I don't want to take everything at face value either.<br>

 ]]>
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<title>Kosovo declares independence! (Author: Guests / Forum: Current events)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=115202&amp;get=last#224138</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:53:16 CST
</pubDate>
<description>
<![CDATA[ 
<table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>Brian Foley wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">First off could you prove that such a entity as “The Kosovans” exist , such as a distinct Kosovar Language...</td>
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</table><br><br>I am a linguist by profession, that is, a language scientist, and that
is the sole reason for my interest here or looking at this page. Seeing
your implication that there is no Kosovar language, I have the right --
and the knowledge -- to rebut it. <br><br>The Ethnologue web site lists information about every known language. It is run by the SIL, an organization of linguists with no political interests. Their page on "Albanian, Gheg" <br>(http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aln) says in part:<br><br>Albanian, Gheg<br>A language of Serbia and Montenegro<br><br>ISO 639-3: aln<br>Region     Kosova. Also spoken in Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Slovenia, USA.<br>Alternate names       Geg, Shgip<br>Dialects     ***Not intelligible with Tosk Albanian.***<br><br>(Emphasis added.) For purposes of communication, that means that it is a separate language. What people want to call a "language" and what they want to call a "dialect" depends as much on politics as it does on facts, but there's no scientific basis to say that Kosova Albanian is not a language.<br><br><br>  ]]>
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<title>9/11 story? (Author: Brian Foley / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130993&amp;get=last#224101</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 03:26:49 CST
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<description>
<![CDATA[ Americas ruling class let this plot come to fruition allowing the CIA and FBI to protect the plotters . I reckon the 19 dupes provided by Saudi intelligence working in cooperation with the CIA set up the attacks . These hijackers believed in their missions that they were going to attack American targets by surprise . The ensuing attacks allowed public consent for the war on terror to proceed which object is the retention of US control the distribution of mideastern oil .Consequently this distribution of mideast oil adds $1 trillion a year to the US economy .  <br /><br />Here is something you might find suspicious . <table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b> wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text"><a href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2004/230804visafound.htm" target="_blank"> CNN: 'Hijacker' Visa Found in Flight 93 Wreckage </a><br /><br />CNN is reporting that 9/11 hijacker Ziad Jarrah's visa was found in the remains of Flight 93 which went down in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.</td>
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</table><br /><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b> wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text"><a href="http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=43653" target="_blank"> SECOND Hijacker Passport Found on Street Below WTC </a><br /><br />The passport of suspected hijacker Mohammed Atta was found intact, in pristine condition, lying on the sidewalk below.</td>
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</table><br />I wonder were these passports planted ?<br /> ]]>
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<title>9/11 story? (Author: Naeman / Forum: North America)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130993&amp;get=last#224094</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:08:14 CST
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<description>
<![CDATA[ I'm not planning on debating anybody, I lack a formal opinion and wanted to see if anybody had an interesting perspective.

 ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: odin / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224085</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:32:56 CST
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<description>
<![CDATA[ <P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>Mongo wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">Tell that to China who took resources from peasants for their Olympics so they could look good to the world.</td>
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<P><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0"> Their doing the same thing over here. <IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0"></P> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: Mongo / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224084</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:19:20 CST
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<![CDATA[ <table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
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<TD =bold>Master_Shake wrote:<BR>
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<TD =text>what a terrificly negative attitude toward the Olympics.</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></P>
<P>Politics have no room in the Olympics or at least they shouldn't.</P>
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<P>Countries compete against one another as opposing teams and you think that politics WILL NOT BE a part of the Olympics?</P>
<P>Tell that to China who took resources from peasants for their Olympics so they could look good to the world. China politicized this Olympics to death.</P> ]]>
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<title>Even more dark secrets of Western media (Author: Mongo / Forum: Asia &amp; Australia)</title>
<link>http://www.students4democracy.org/sfd/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=119857&amp;get=last#224083</link>
<pubDate>
Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:15:29 CST
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<![CDATA[ <table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>p5726 wrote:</b><br />
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<TD =bold>Master_Shake wrote:<BR>
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<TD =text>What?  Where was this said, and by who. </TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></P>
<P>By most Western media. They're saying it's a parallel situation. The White settlers went to Australia to take over their land just like the 'Chinese' did to Tibetans.</P>
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<P>LOL. Really? Master Shake said it the best.</P>
<P> </P>
<P><table width="95%" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr><td><b>Master_Shake wrote:</b><br />
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       <td class="text">Because who ever compared China to Austriala and the Tibetans to Aborignes is in the words of the English a "bleeding idoit". </td>
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<P>I am sure the propaganda that you read makes you believe that we do see it just like that.</P>
<P><IMG src="http://www.studentsfordemocracy.net/sfd/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0"></P>
<P>Guess what, that is the first time I have heard that ridiculous comparison. So how can you say that this is how we are brainwashed or misled?</P>
<P>What rock did you have to turn over to find that crap? Or did you just make it up yourself.</P> ]]>
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